Manual steering: Will I hate it?

"cletus44 aka Clayton Seams" (cletus44) 10/17/2016 at 09:48 • Filed to: Cletus-Vette

3

58

The steering box and power steering “ram” in the Cletus-Vette are just ruined. I’ll be rebuilding (ie. replacing) the majority of the steering this winter but I need to decide if I’m going to retain the power steering. Does anyone have experience with manual steering in a car this size?

I’ve owned rinky-dink hatchbacks with manual steering and they were fine but the Corvette is 3,250-pounds of car with 225-width tires. Will I hate it? I’d ask the NCRS guys but they’re kinda soft. They told me I’d hate the side pipes (love ‘em) and that I’d hate the stiff big-block-spec suspension I’m running.

nafsucof > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 09:51

0

Nah you are fine once you are moving. Parking is an issue and be careful when slowing to turn on to another street as the lack of power steering makes that a “you need to be prepared” kinda turn but yeah driving once moving is fine and easy.

crowmolly > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 09:52

2

Absolutely.

‘68 big block vette with manual steering and 225 tires. I think there are two “settings” for the steering, a fast and slow ratio.

It’s not too bad on the road, but parking/sharp turns can be a PITA. That’s it. It’s not as awful as some say.

Bultaco's JMOD TownCar drives his pa to drinkin > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 09:56

0

I would definitely look up what other owners have done. I know with my car you run the risk of ruining your steering column shafts/bearings if you man-handle it for more than a month or so. By ruin I mean introduce a bigger on center dead spot. That part of the steering system was never intended to support the full force of steering effort, if that makes sense.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 09:57

0

I would keep it with power steering. I’ve driven Land Cruisers with skinnier tires and a steering wheel the size of a beach ball that did not have power steering and it sucked.

Nibby > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:01

0

It’s not bad until you gotta parallel park or do a 3 point turn... but it builds character.

LongbowMkII > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:02

0

How big is the steering wheel? Is it a big factory one or a smaller aftermarket one?

Flyboy is FAA certified insane > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:03

0

I drove an old Chevy something (I really don’t remember what it was. Impala? Malibu?) With a 6 and 2-speed auto and manual steering. It’s not terrible. Definitely an arm workout when parking but you only do that twice a trip usually.

WilliamsSW > crowmolly 10/17/2016 at 10:04

0

Yeah, I don’t know Corvettes, but back in the day, non-PS cars had slower steering ratios. I’ve driven old cars without PS, and drove one with a failed PS pump. The first one just takes more work at slow speeds. The 2nd one is a bitch.

duurtlang > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:05

0

Like you and others mentioned; in light weight cars with skinny tires it’s no problem anywhere. In a heavy car with wide tires it’s no problem cruising. However, parking a heavy wide tired car with manual steering into a tight spot will be annoying.

crowmolly > WilliamsSW 10/17/2016 at 10:07

1

Yeah, but I messed up. Too used to giving that boilerplate reply about other GM stuff.

I forgot the C3 vette setup is NOT that. It is a janky power assist on to a manual system. A hydraulic ram helped move the drag link. Edited above.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > LongbowMkII 10/17/2016 at 10:10

0

It’s a factory 12" wheel. (I think)

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Bultaco's JMOD TownCar drives his pa to drinkin 10/17/2016 at 10:10

0

I see what you’re saying but 30% of Corvettes came with manual steering in 1970. Mine was a manual steering car but had the system added later in its life.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > crowmolly 10/17/2016 at 10:12

0

Firstly, a ‘68 big block with manual steering? That’s a pretty awesome car! Is it yours? But you’re right, there is a slow and fast setting for the steering, mine is currently on the fast setting. What is the difference between manual and non-power?

WilliamsSW > crowmolly 10/17/2016 at 10:15

0

Hmmm, I didn’t know that! Odd that Chevy would do that on their flagship, but then it makes Cletus’ idea workable, so now it’s a good thing—

Bultaco's JMOD TownCar drives his pa to drinkin > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:15

1

Ah ok... So the car is probably fine. Recommend 1 bowl of Wheaties in the morning.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:21

1

I tend toward suggesting manual steering as a way to keep things more raw anyway, and neither my Rover nor the VW Rabbit pickup I had were PS - nor is the Ranchero. OTOH, the Rover is definitely more of a chore than the Rabbit was, and your Vette is heavier still. With the small wheel, you might actually want it. Not having it is definitely one of those things that’s more rewarding on a light car, and there is no fuckin’ way I’ll not be fixing the PS on my barge.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/17/2016 at 10:26

0

HMMMMMM. This has given me much to think about.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:37

0

Since you’ve got the small block (IIRC), and the Vette has good weight distribution, it’s probably similar to the Rover in some respects. The Rover *does* have very bad steering geometry due to 4WD, which means it trades off less of an angle change lock to lock (easier steering) against having to twist the tires more and having to push them forward/backward/down a lot more than the Vette (much harder steering). Then again, bias ply tires, which twist more easily.

It’s going to partly depend on your front tires - wide will be *very* stiff and hard to swing through. If they’re pretty normal, it will be okay. Heading along at any speed over 20, it will not matter even a little, but 90 degree turns out of a parking lot at 10mph may beat on your arms like a rented mule.

It all comes down to, is this going to be a car just for going back and forth to Walgreens? That’s the situation in which manual steering might be more of a liability.

Funny enough, my giant barge has the same kind of PS as that - a ram on the link - but it has one of the sharpest turning ratios of any car I’ve sat in, and it weighs nearly three tons loaded. There is no chance of that not getting fixed.

Liam Farrell > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:37

0

The rover has manual steering. It has big nearly tires and weigh about that much. It’s fine driving, in parking lots, it is difficult and slow, but it a pretty simple system

crowmolly > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:37

0

Sorry dude, I botched my original post.

The car isn’t mine but I’ve helped out on it for years. I had a C3 but sold it.

This doesn’t really apply to you, but for other stuff of that era:

Manual and power boxes have different ratios (some power boxes were variable ratio too). Both designs work well, but power boxes are built to work with hydraulic pressure. If you just disconnect a power box on, say, a Chevelle, it does not make it a manual box- it makes it an unpowered power box as the steering ratio doesn’t change. Can make it shitty to drive.

In your case, however, the Vettes have a hydraulic “helper” ram on a straight-up manual box. You can dump it if you want to and the box works the same. Might need to move the speed setting. Or you can get a rebuild kit from Dr. Rebuild or a place like that. Just be very sure you do it right as you don’t want a steering failure while you are driving!

Also, check out your rag joint. If it’s messed up at all your steering will suffer and I seem to remember it being close to a header primary on a sidemount setup.

notsomethingstructural > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:38

0

You’ll be fine, I’ve driven cars without PS a few times (a SE-R for years, and a couple big boy SUV’s) and it’s fine. Avoid parallel parking and keep the car rolling in parking lots. You’ll be fine.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > crowmolly 10/17/2016 at 10:39

0

Great to know and much appreciated. Thanks!

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/17/2016 at 10:42

0

Hmmm great info but that’s my deabte. I live in downtown Toronto. I have to three-point-turn to enter my garage every day from the narrow alley it backs on to and parallel parking is a part of my week.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > duurtlang 10/17/2016 at 10:43

0

I have to three-point-turn into my garage every day :(

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Liam Farrell 10/17/2016 at 10:43

0

88s are a bit lighter than his Vette, and 109s pretty much in line with it, but Series also have less ideal steering geometry, so can be harder than what he’d probably see.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > notsomethingstructural 10/17/2016 at 10:44

0

Can’t avoid parallel parking. I street park it in downtown all the time. But I suppose I could avoid being a bitch about it :P

KatzManDu > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:44

0

My 1958 Corvette had manual steering.

Good for building upper arm strength.

And that was with skinny tires, too.

The last car I drove with manual steering was a friend’s Capri. It was not quite as much of a workout.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Nibby 10/17/2016 at 10:45

0

I have to 3 point turn into my garage every day and I parallel park it every time I take it into downtown. Sad reality :(. Also, hi Nibby! Good to see you posting more lately.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > KatzManDu 10/17/2016 at 10:45

0

The debate rages on. I think I’ll just remove it and see how much i hate it

notsomethingstructural > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:47

0

If you don’t have a good 3+ feet in front and behind you, you’ll be miserable. Trying to shimmy the SE-R into small spaces was a nightmare and it was like 70% the weight.

KatzManDu > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:48

0

It’s easy to remove the serpentine belt off the power steering pump to give it a go.

Klaus Schmoll > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:52

0

My dad had a Peugeot 405 without power steering. Even with just a 4cyl on the front axle parallel parking was a bitch, especially in summer (no AC) you were ready to hit the shower again after parking it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:52

1

If I’m not mistaken, the power steering setup uses the same tie rods as manual, just a different center link. *If* that’s the case, your center link can get swapped at any time, and the actually-dangerous parts that you need to replace are all the same. Why not try it out? Just decouple the cylinder, put plugs in the valve, buy $20 worth of belts to set up the engine without the pump, and drive. I don’t think anything other than the belts is an actual expense if you want to experiment.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > KatzManDu 10/17/2016 at 10:56

0

Won’t that make me push the weight of the hydraulic ram around? Or will it just be plain, old manual steering?

Bandit - destroyed his car > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:57

0

My Trans Am blew its pump once and it was awful with about the same weight and tire size. Didn’t help the steering wheel is only like 14 inches though.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/17/2016 at 10:57

0

I’ll have to try this. The pwr steering belt is on its own circuit so no problems there

KatzManDu > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 10:59

0

True, there will be some dead weight with it. I’m not sure.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 11:08

0

I consider myself an aficionado of what my dad likes to call Power Steering by Armstrong, but a lot of the time you don’t get to choose or experiment. You’ve got quite an opportunity.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Bandit - destroyed his car 10/17/2016 at 11:09

1

Well you were also pushing the dead power steering shuttle through the rack. Corvettes have a strange add-on type power steering system.

TheRealBicycleBuck > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 11:17

0

It wasn’t until my third or fourth vehicle that I had power steering. The trick is to avoid trying to turn unless you are rolling. This may be difficult when maneuvering in tight spaces, but even a little bit of forward or backward motion makes a big difference.

'69 427/425 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 11:23

3

This is my ‘69 427/425 Biscayne which has no comfort options and no power steering. The only option boxes the original owner checked were for the engine, transmission and rear end. At 4,000 LB it is a son of a gun to wrestle around a parking lot but the sweet sound of the big block with the header cutouts open makes up for the difficulty at low speed. I think you will be fine without power steering if this is just a weekend car, but if it will be your daily driver I would think about keeping the power as it can get tiring.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > '69 427/425 10/17/2016 at 11:36

0

Oh my god that car. I want many, many pictures of it. I love those bare-bones big block cars. 4 speed?

Liam Farrell > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/17/2016 at 11:43

0

I have a 109. Most of the weight is over the front axle. Yes, it would probably be easier it the vette

Nibby > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 11:45

1

Good seeing you as well! Been busy with work and visiting relatives lately but now I have more time \o/

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 12:00

0

Don’t forget that you have a big iron block right over the front wheels too

Hey Julie > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 12:00

1

My 280zx has manual steering and it weighs just over 3000 pounds, after a year of driving it I have beefy arms and the only time I ever don’t love the steering is when I’m trying to parallel park and then it’s a serious annoyance

Cé hé sin > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 12:02

0

I had a Mk3 Escort with manual steering.

I hated it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Bultaco's JMOD TownCar drives his pa to drinkin 10/17/2016 at 12:42

1

In case nobody has complimented you on your Commander Keen avatar, let me be the first to do so. Assuming I haven’t already some months ago or anything.

'69 427/425 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 12:43

1

Thank you, I don’t have too many pictures of the car on this computer but I did include the above from the drag strip this summer and an old cell shot of the engine.

It is a 4 speed, bench seat, 4.56 posi, AM radio car with a little over 15k miles at this point. It is original, with the exception of headers, exhaust and line lock, but not perfect. I consider it to be in “as raced” condition, if that makes sense to anyone besides myself, from the late ‘60's - early ‘70's. Currently it has a wide ratio Munice, rather than the correct rock crusher, which I have, installed. Dad found it at an estate auction in the ‘90's and we worked on and raced it together. The last thing we did car wise together before he passed was install the header cutouts. I intend on keeping the car forever, or as close as I can get. I put a hundred or so miles on it this summer to local car shows in north east Ohio. It draws attention wherever it goes, particularly from the baby boomer generation car guys. For as big as it is it really comes up on you when the loud pedal is planted. I have pictures from the original owner when the car was raced at Magnolia Raceway, near Canton, OH, that show the front wheels being pulled up off the pavement.

Jobjoris > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 12:43

1

RWD, no problem. Especially if that power steering is some add-on type power steering system you’re referring to in the replies. My 911 is smaller/lighter than this but that one probably has wider tires than your Corvette. No problem whatsoever.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Hey Julie 10/17/2016 at 13:19

0

A 280ZX was my first car. love those things.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > '69 427/425 10/17/2016 at 13:21

0

Wow man. That’s an amazing car with an incredible story. I’m in awe. What city in Ohio are you in?

My bird IS the word > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 14:06

0

Driven my friends 280z, people always bitch about the manual steering in vids but it really isn’t bad. The question is, do you think it will be better than a rebuilt PS system? I wasn’t really feeling the hype. I think a normally assisted close-ratio box is fine compared to manual, but I have driven wildly overassisted cars before and that is worse than both. Haven’t driven a vette so I can’t comment on that. For the trans ams at least they recommend the new  delphi 670 or 800 PS boxes over re-manufactured units.

'69 427/425 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 14:15

1

I live in a small town about 40 minutes south of Youngstown. I am going to head out right now to confirm the garage door is locked. Ha.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > '69 427/425 10/17/2016 at 15:28

0

Check for a large drool stain just outside the door

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > '69 427/425 10/17/2016 at 15:29

0

Oh dude! You’re only 5 hrs away from me! I should road trip the Cletus-Vette over there some time.

'69 427/425 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 20:06

1

Sounds good, there is a drag strip just up the road at which we could make a run or two. I only made one pass this year, and need to get a few more in.

jdrgoat - Ponticrack? > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 10/17/2016 at 23:56

0

It’s not really the same, but my Fiero has manual steering and is 3 turns lock-to-lock and it’s fine for me. I can see it getting hectic and annoying when trying to do some fast maneuvers, though.

I’m only 2750lb with 45% on the front.